Firearm things

"Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious" (shour) 07/10/2018 at 23:34 • Filed to: None

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I know that many of my fellow Opponauts are firearm owners, so I thought your brains would be good to pick. (I know many of us are also very anti-firearm. I respect your first amendment right to your beliefs and opinions; however, I have no desire to either proselytize or be proselytized. ^_^)

A friend of mine is interested in getting licensed, but he has zero firearms experience. He asked me if starting with an Airsoft-type gun to practice with before purchasing a firearm would be smart.

I don’t have an answer for him.

I jumped into firearms ownership recreationally with a range queen, but my attitude shifted after Dylan Roof executed nine people after praying with them. Any choices I have made regarding firearms purchases or training, including becoming licenced to carry, have been purely functional and not recreational. I have never thought of a pellet gun as anything other than recreational (although if I had land with rodents and stuff, I suppose a pellet gun could be functional).

I don’t want to tell my friend that an Airsoft gun is a waste of money and time if that is not the case. But I don’t know, realistically. In my mind, it doesn’t line up, because the things that you have to learn in becoming good shooter - recoil management, trigger control, not flinching or reacting to the explosion - that stuff is removed from the pellet experience, right? I mean, perhaps you can learn to aim and fire pellets accurately, but once you add in things like trigger slap, muzzle flip, forward break, etc...all that accuracy kinda just goes in the garbage.

Anyone here find Airsoft practice useful? Transferable? Not a waste? Pretty FC for your time.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:05

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Id guess not useful. I have my license (called a PAL or possession and a cquisition license here in Canada).

Nibbles > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:12

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Not really that helpful. Do you have a hunters safety course available in your area?

Alfalfa > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:14

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I s uppose that depends on what you consider useful. As a child, I was given responsibility of a pellet rifle. I didn’t learn how to fire a real gun from that experience, but I did learn about safe gun handling and ownership. As an adult, I feel like this lesson may not be as necessary, being (hopefully) a more responsible person to begin with than a 10 year old.

Athough considering how cheap many airguns run, I’m not sure I’d consider it a waste of money. A good pellet gun can be had for $ 30-$ 70 and can be useful for varmints in the suburbs at times.

DipodomysDeserti > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:19

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I would never use an airsoft gun to train someone. No recoil, the trajectory of the projectile is completely different, and it doesn’t help build that sense of respect that people should have while handling firearms. If he’s worried about recoil management while learning, I’d go with a Bersa Thunder, or if he wants to go with something weird and quirky, a Makarov.

Wuelling > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:22

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His best bet would be to get a real gun with dummy rounds. He will get a feel for the handle and and feel of it without the kill pills. All you really need to know is the 3 golden rules. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shot, always assume the gun is loaded, and never point it at something you are not willing to destroy. Gun ownership is a huge responsibility and shouldn’t be taken lightly. Also taking a conceal carry class would be helpful even if he never plans on doing so, they go over a lot of safety training 

DipodomysDeserti > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/11/2018 at 00:35

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Canadians have guns? Shit. Well, Plan B is out the window.

Tristan > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:41

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I vote no on the airsoft. We have a local shop (Threat Dynamics)  with a range where you can rent all their different firearms and get all manner of training. It’s where I leaned that I absolutely had to own a Walther PPQ.

Look for a place like that.

Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious > DipodomysDeserti 07/11/2018 at 00:43

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The respect thing is something I thought about, too, but didn’t mention. I agree completely that the gravity of holding a deadly weapon is very much a part of training to operate and carry it safely.

In fact, I would state that if you don't feel the gravity and responsibility every time you have the weapon in hand, one should reconsider handgun ownership. 

facw > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:46

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Not a gun owner, but I have shot both guns and airsoft guns at various points. I wouldn’t recommend the airsoft gun as a step towards gun ownership. They are fun toys, but aside from looks, they are nothing like real guns, and the lessons are not really transferable. If he wants an airsoft gun, then he should of course feel free to get one, he should just be aware that it is a hugely different device than a real gun.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 00:57

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I do think there’s value in starting off in the boys department, but an airsoft pistol is so far removed from the real thing that I’m not sure what training value they would have that dry fire doesn’t. I really prefer to start new shooters off with a low-powered rifle, let them get some base line proficiency with the fundamentals of marksmanship where the geometry is much more in their favor , and then transfer those fundamentals to pistols. A 22LR is perfect, but even something still low- powered like an AR platform weapon in 5.56 can work.

If I had to start someone off on pistol s, I’d probably recommend some flavor of .22 as a purely training tool (I draw my Mendoza line for defensive purposes at .380, or its 9x18mm Makarov Eastern cousin ). Cheap to buy, cheap to feed, and doesn’t encourage the   inducement recoil related bad habits in a new shooter. If I had no other choice but to start a new shooter off with a defensive caliber pistol, I’d do it with whatever their preferred flavor of full-size, duty pistol is in 9mm. If they had to learn on something concealable, I’d pick a Walther PK380. Small enough to conceal, just big enough to handle well and be manageable for a less experienced shooter firing .380. If they want to be old school about it and go with a metal frame, then I’d consider a Walther PPK (or a Makarov, or a Sig P232 want the ultimate evolution of the PPK).

TheRealBicycleBuck > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 01:23

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Growing up in the country, we started off with pellet guns , moved on to .22s and moved up from there. The first “real” gun I shot was a 12-gauge. As for pistols, we just didn’t carry them.

After inheriting a .40, I had the chance to shoot it bac k-to- back with a 9mm. My wife was there and it was her first time shooting anything. After that outing, I’d suggest something small for a first-timer. I read an article a while back which suggested converting a large-bore gun to a .22 to make practice easier and cheaper. I’m not sure if I’d go this route, but I guarantee I’ll get something smaller for my wife to shoot when she’s ready to get licensed. The .40 I have is just too much to handle for someone with little experience. The 9 was more reasonable, but I think a .22 pistol is a better option.

KevlarRx7 > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 01:35

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Crap video but you get the idea, co2 with blowback can be a very useful training tool, a lot of cadet forces ect will start with Airsoft/ PCP air powered weapons due to the ease of use for training. 

Hamtractor > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 08:41

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Go to your local range, get some basic firearms handling classes under the belt. Then get some rental time behind as many guns as possible until you find a gun you shoot well. Buy that gun, with eye towards a gun that can accept a .22 LR conversion kit (readily available for nearly all of the common manufacturers and systems) . Shoot thousands of rounds of .22 LR to get intimate with your trigger and the manual of arms for that system. Join an IDPA club, take lots of classes. Gun ownership is a serious responsibility, carrying a gun day-to-day even more so. Shooting is a very perishable skill, so my minimum standard for maintai ning that skillset is 100 rounds a month, preferably on a range that allows for movement and drills, as anybody can shoot well on a range standing still and poking holes from 7 yards....

Hamtractor > DipodomysDeserti 07/11/2018 at 08:43

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Garbage triggers on those guns, brother...

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > DipodomysDeserti 07/11/2018 at 08:58

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Superior firepower

DipodomysDeserti > Hamtractor 07/11/2018 at 10:01

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Well, yeah, they’re $200 guns. If you can shoot with a garbage trigger you can shoot with a good trigger.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 12:29

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To even get good accuracy out of an airsoft you need to spend decent money, but even then you get none of the feel a proper firearm provided. The only thing you could get out of an airsoft would be proper handling etiquette . 

My bird IS the word > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 12:48

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What’s he looking to shoot? Pistols I guess?

If he has zero firearm experience, he should take a safety course . E nd o story. If he wants to learn to shoot- he should get a .22 in his preferred arm- rifle or pistol. since it’s a .22, he can get something ridiculous cause they are cheap and he will get bored quickly. For instance (not a recommendation mind you) walther makes a PPK in .22lr and I want to buy one. :

http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/ppk/ppks-22/

learn to shoot a pistol, feel like james bond. Something like this.

Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/11/2018 at 13:26

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I have zero rifle experience. Since it’s not functional for daily carry, I haven’t entertained the thought of purchasing one. You think practicing with a rifle would still be useful to me? (Serious question.)

I’m plenty effective at 7 and 10 yards (as my licence makes evident). I wouldn’t feel good about a reactionary draw-and-fire at 15 yards, however. (I even question whether that’s the right reaction. Rest the handgun on something stable and aim slow, sure.)

Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious > Hamtractor 07/11/2018 at 13:28

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Ranges where you can move while firing aren’t an option in my city. But I’m with you on monthly practice. Now that 100 rounds of aluminum-cased Federal is less that $20, keeping my comfort level and marksmanship reliable is inexcusable.

Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious > Wuelling 07/11/2018 at 13:32

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I always throw the fourth rule in there, too. Know what’s behind your target. ^_^

Conceal carry is exactly what he’s aiming for, but again, he has zero experience. I wonder if he could take the course, skip the qualification, and do h is qualification on a later session.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 14:01

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Sure. Laying out in the prone on the 500 yard line with a .223/5.56 rifle and squeezing off shots will massively expose weaknesses in your technique , particularly in trigger and breath control .

7 and 10 yards are really close, even for pistols.   The 15, 25 and 50 yard lines are more revealing. My background was military and a law enforcement academy. In the LEO world, all pistol shooting was done under tremendous time pressure, and always included reacting to a target, drawing from a holster and firing before the target turned away. Enough time working on trigger control and you’ll feel fine about a reactionary draw and fire at the 25.

Wuelling > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 14:16

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Yeah that's a good one too. I have a XDM 9mm as a home defense I bought when we shared walls with someone. It's so easy to shoot and almost zero recoil I just plan on keeping it. It's my only gun. My in-laws are huge gun guys so I get to shoot what I want with them and not spend the money haha

MM54 > Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious 07/11/2018 at 19:03

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I’d recommend a cheap/secondhand 22 for starters, one comfortable move to whatever he plans to carry, probably a 9mm or such. Airsoft/BB guns don’t really teach you anything beyond how to look down the sights, which you can figure out with anything else just as well, meanwhile working on actual shooting ability.